What to do, what to do...
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Author Topic: What to do, what to do...  (Read 30050 times)
claes
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« on: 2007-11-02, 18:29:14 »

.. about SC2.

I'm not really sure myself and it's about time I find a solution for it. The core of the problem is that I have too little time, motivation and financial dependency on it to develop it much further. I don't really need it myself either, the drum racks in Live7 suits most of my sampler usage brilliantly, and if I need to use a special feature in SC2 it's still there whether it's called alpha or not. The only real reason for me to work on it is not to disappoint the existing users, and I'm afraid that's not enough. A product like this needs a lot of love (and time), not only to finish it but to properly maintain and improve it.

The situation with Surge is completely different. It's my definite to-go synth when making music, a way better seller than SC ever was and it's pretty much perfect in its current state, any improvements are just gravy. (the 1.5.0 upgrade has taken longer than it should've had though)

The SC1 -> SC2 transition wasn't as smooth as it should've been. There's a lot of brilliance in both these releases of SC but there were also mistakes in the design, not to mention the very basic fact that building a good sampler is really HARD. There are so many different use-cases that deal with hierarchy, GUI, sample persistence, sample/patch import/export, host-madness, you name it, which makes developing a normal synthesizer childsplay in comparison (unless they're as refined as surge obviously). I'd consider most sampler plug-ins failures and that for a good reason.

Still the question remains, what to do? What I'm considering is discontinuing it from the product line, releasing it for free (v1 & v2) and let it live it's own life. Don't expect much in the way of support, but maybe there might be a small community growing up from it and I just might become more motivated. The most important bugs will probably still be fixed, but don't expect it to be swift. No OS X either. It would also function as a nice way to give exposure to Surge and I might even be nice enough to throw in a discount for SC owners. As an added bonus I will be pissing of NI.  grin

I'll have to think for a while about it, and which competitors I will be hurting, but I'd appreciate to hear what you all think about this.

Yes I already know I'm an asshole..  shocked

cheers,
/ Claes
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kingtubby
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« Reply #1 on: 2007-11-02, 19:03:34 »

Well, I'll be somewhat disappointed as I bought SC1 on the assumption that SC2 would emerge as a finished product. Having said that, I do understand your position as an independant developer of a product that I presume hasn't sold particularly well, combined with your stated reasons for dropping it - complexity and so on.
I guess a decent discount on the purchase of Surge may assuage my feeling a bit let down... grin

Mart.
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bluelight
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« Reply #2 on: 2007-11-02, 19:24:20 »

 
Not sure i should post here since i havenīt actually bought Shortcircuit as i was give the opportunity in the beginning to try Short 1 out.
But.....I still havenīt made the switch to using the betas for Short 2 regularly because i like Short 1 as it is.
 Nor do i think that i wouldhave expected Short 2 to become the "mother of all samplers" (for the same reasons you mention) so as for me Short 1 will do fine.Probably for several years to come.
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D3vil
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« Reply #3 on: 2007-11-02, 20:18:10 »

 cry

I own both Surge and SC and it will be a sad day for me if you have / do decide to abandon SC2.  I do own Komplete 4 and never really use Kontakt 2 because SC1>SC2 fitted so well with the way I use samples.  The only thing that I would ask to be changed in any further releases is to make the embedding of samples an option.

Regards.
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Dstruct
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« Reply #4 on: 2007-11-03, 10:09:42 »

sad news Sad

i can understand the "problems", but please don't give up claes! i don't care if sc2 needs another year. you already put so much time into it. don't let it die!


maybe let it "sleep" for a while and do some bugfixes for sc1 (you know, there are some), so that we would have a proper final version of sc1 at least. or is it too risky to touch the code after so much time?


imo sc2 has time. hope your decision isn't made yet. you know, all the samplers from other companies suck  afro
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claes
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« Reply #5 on: 2007-11-03, 11:47:37 »

Well the real change I'm planning would not be so much about letting it die as it becoming freeware. I just don't feel good about it staying as a commercial product at the current rate it's developing. With a larger vibrant userbase I might just as well be more motivated to work at it than at the moment even if it's only role commercially would be as a surge-ad, who knows?
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Dstruct
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« Reply #6 on: 2007-11-03, 11:58:30 »

ah ok. then it's not that bad news at all Smiley
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Fragilex
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« Reply #7 on: 2007-11-03, 15:30:20 »

What once was a fantastic underdog in the samplerscene will be the best freewaresampler available.

Perhaps it could be a good way to spread the word about vemberaudio.
As long as you don't let it rest, it's all fine with me; and I think a lot of people will be very very happy being able to use such a great product for free.

I can imagine it's not an easy decision to make...
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Elan Hickler
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« Reply #8 on: 2007-11-03, 19:17:19 »

So then $150 I spent will be a complete waste? That's fine under one condition.

I personally need SC2 to be finished. I need the features that its supposed to have to work or I just do not have a go-to sampler. Whether you make it become freeware and then finish it in a year, and make it a "pay for full version" deal in the future, whatever. I just need it to be completed. It's the only sampler that I'm am willing to work with or can afford to use for loops. When you make it freeware, Surge will get more sales so maybe you'll be more motivated by the extra money.

I REALLY NEED SC2 TO HAVE GOOD LOOP (beatslicing) FEATURES TO WORK WITH LOOPS. Oh yeah, and I can't type in "snare" in the search field because my host uses those letters. FIX THAT TOO


Now I say make it freeware, get a huge fanbase, get your name more widely known, GIVE SURGE MULTI-POINT ENVELOPES (I'll pay for an update like that). Giving surge multi-point envelopes would not ruin any of the GUI design. You simply use the envelope button that's already there, give it a "switch to multi-point mode" button and vuala.

I've been using Surge beta 1.5.0 for a long time, what's the big hold up? I see no problems.
« Last Edit: 2007-11-03, 19:28:08 by Elan Hickler » Logged

"The only mistake in life is to give up when confronted with failure."

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spritex
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« Reply #9 on: 2007-11-03, 19:43:43 »

And I am just in the process of selling my license because I switched to Mac... Now I can't honestly sell it anymore if you make it freeware.
I actually bought it just when SC2 was announced.  sad

Oh well. I wonder what kind of Surge discount were you thinking for SC owners? Luckily Surge is for Mac too, but I really don't need another VA because I already got Zebra and ES2 in Logic.
But if it was really really cheap for SC licenseers as a gesture...

Another option for you would be to radically lower the SC price and announce that it won't get fast updates.

 
« Last Edit: 2007-11-03, 20:00:42 by spritex » Logged
Versia Nova
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« Reply #10 on: 2007-11-03, 20:37:01 »

I own both Surge and SC1. And i'm using SC2 rather often. I believe that free SC1 and SC2 free will bring a lot of new users to the forum. This means more noise about vemberaudio products on the web. Good for Surge Smiley. SC is fantastic and unique sampler. Freeware version will have great success, no doubt. Maybe that fact will inspire you to work hard on a secret commercial version of SC3. Who knows... Smiley Anyway I respect your decision.
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shamann
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« Reply #11 on: 2007-11-03, 20:38:03 »

Yes I already know I'm an asshole.

Giving anything away free is admirable, I don't think many here would call you an asshole for doing that.

But, I wouldn't bother giving it away free unless it's finished, no sense in sticking anything half-finished out there. Better would probably be to fix any outstanding bugs in v1 and give it away, put v2 up on a shelf as either a failed venture or something you might revisit at a later date. Last time I tried v2, it was still in far too early stages to be usable.

Sadly, the recording bug in v1 with Audiomulch has made v1 unusable for me, which is too bad since I absolutely love v1.
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Xenakios
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« Reply #12 on: 2007-11-04, 21:16:53 »

Well, I guess something like this was coming...   cry Fortunately it's been a long time since I invested in Shortcircuit 1, so I don't feel so disappointed. Haven't even really gotten around to using it for a long time, as my MIDI-allergy has grown so bad again. I love the sounds that SC can produce, but hate tinkering around with MIDI...  tongue

Great that SC is now available as freeware! I don't think anyone can beat the price versus quality there!  evil

-X
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Macc
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« Reply #13 on: 2007-11-04, 22:03:03 »

Strange times, and a little sad - but I totally understand claes Smiley Give it away, it sounds like your mind is made up already Wink

BUT - 'Finish' it though, at least to a level where you (as a geek) are happy enough to let it out into the public domain. Then float it and let it go. As has been said, it would be a shame to waste the work you've put in already, which is still so promising. I'd say you owe that last step to yourself (if not us lot too Cheesy ).

I wish you the best with everything no matter what though man, and I doubt I'll ever use another soft sampler other than SC1 - except, I hope, SC2.

Smiley
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qwanta
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« Reply #14 on: 2007-11-04, 23:45:37 »

As someone who bought shortcircuit & surge shortly after each was released, I agree with your assessment of Surge as near perfect; thanks also for explaining the situation with shortcircuit. As you say, there are many different ways of using a sampler and it is really hard to cater to everyone simultaneously as many people may use them very differently. Sc1 was an almost perfect fit for my way of doing things, I always liked the ease of experimentation it offered and its simple and intuitive, yet powerful interface. When the sc2 alpha came out, I was a little non-plussed to be honest, it seemed like it was aimed at a different kind of user - less precision, on the envelopes (sliders instead of numbers), hard wired groups (instead of "add as needed" sc1 approach)... though it had more features and was apparently more powerful, sc1 is the sampler I still use on a daily basis and is closer to my ideal sampler.

When sc2 alpha came out and sc1 updates were ended, I was a bit disappointed as I felt some incremental improvements/bugfixes to sc1 could have brought the thing very close to the "perfect" status surge has on the VST instrument end, without rewriting everything from scratch. Some of the incremental things I would have liked to see:

1. more filters (surge filters) especially 24dB hipass
2. sample management overall (ability to move samples up and down in the left pane list, ability to duplicate sample including wav duplicate).
3. mod matrix bypass buttons
4. fix save paths problem ($relative)
5. basic audio editing (cut/paste/reverse) like emu/akai hardware.
6. multi-point envelopes on waveform
7. more FX types
8. VST FX bin (offline sample render)

Anyway, the reason I bring these up is that, as they are not likely to be implemented in sc1, would it be possible to consider open sourcing the sc1 source code so that development on it could continue? Claes, I think that it's a lot more likely for a community to grow around sc1 if code can be contributed to it and the sampler enhanced. With a bit of luck, it would also mean that sc1 would continue to work as new OS's and hosts are released in the future as any incompatibilities could be fixed by the "community" and you wouldn't have to worry about them. As much as I love sc1, from past experience I know that when code stops getting updated, at some point it stops working with updates OS's/hosts & I would hate for that to happen. Would also like to see some of the excellent forum suggestions implemented - with a whole group of contributors this thing could go the remaining 15-20% it needs, the groundwork is there!

Well you asked for opinions, and as a longtime sc1 customer, that's mine.  smiley I hope you will consider it.
« Last Edit: 2007-11-05, 03:50:51 by qwanta » Logged
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